tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post171256082480058420..comments2024-02-28T05:14:52.166-04:00Comments on A Hamsterish Hoard of Dungeons and Dragons: That old-fashioned antagonism; or, this is why we can't have nice things. Especially, it seems, if you're a lowly player.taicharahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02213053468697534564noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-2095065150355445132009-02-26T13:18:00.000-04:002009-02-26T13:18:00.000-04:00@Matt Finch:Fair enough; and thank ye kind for cla...@Matt Finch:<BR/><BR/>Fair enough; and thank ye kind for clarifying for me also.taicharahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213053468697534564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-29940533554622055162009-02-26T12:39:00.000-04:002009-02-26T12:39:00.000-04:00Actually, that was a general invitation to write a...Actually, that was a general invitation to write a letter, I wasn't suggesting that you'd start an edition war. I was also addressing the fact that it had been brought up in the thread, and (since it was an invitation to all the comment writers I felt like that needed to be said). That wasn't aimed at you.Matt Finchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678557558458924177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-1228824156031392672009-02-26T12:07:00.000-04:002009-02-26T12:07:00.000-04:00@Matt Finch:Why would I want to write an "edition ...@Matt Finch:<BR/><BR/>Why would I want to write an "edition war" anything? This is not about editions and was not until others brought the issue in. It was about a perception of players and by extension play style as a percieved enemy, as I read it.<BR/><BR/>And to be perfectly honest, after being personally attacked here on my own blog (though assuredly not by yourself), I would need to think taicharahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213053468697534564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-82292639633178580182009-02-26T12:01:00.000-04:002009-02-26T12:01:00.000-04:00@ BadelaireYou're looking at what I'm sayi...@ Badelaire<BR/><BR/>You're looking at what I'm saying in reverse. I'm saying a ruleset with parameters is BETTER for a head to head game, not that it evidences one. If you're going to play a more head to head game (which, again, I see as totally valid - it's just not my bag for D&D specifically), then you need those parameters.<BR/><BR/>By the way, if anyone wants to Matt Finchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678557558458924177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-7265836793623900202009-02-26T11:51:00.000-04:002009-02-26T11:51:00.000-04:00Right - a detailed set of rules, in my mind does n...Right - a detailed set of rules, in my mind does not equal in any measure "Adversarial" gameplay. That so amny people don't agree is a mystery to me.Jack Badelairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10932441028544500024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-59324860443274831372009-02-26T11:38:00.000-04:002009-02-26T11:38:00.000-04:00@Matt Finch:To each their own, I suppose. I start...@Matt Finch:<BR/><BR/>To each their own, I suppose. I started with 2e and still run/play 2e, and I can't say that I encountered the manner of "hand to head" gaming style you describe. Perhaps the groups I have been in and have run for have been different that way.<BR/><BR/>3e did add more maths and bits and snips, at the least; a leading reason why I went back to 2e and BEMCI.<BR/><BR/>Still taicharahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213053468697534564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-54231585984413921352009-02-26T11:32:00.000-04:002009-02-26T11:32:00.000-04:00Well, as I said, I view Knockspell as a hobbyist r...Well, as I said, I view Knockspell as a hobbyist rag, not as a commercial publication. :)<BR/><BR/>As to 3e, I focus on it only because I think it's the point at which a head to head gaming style for D&D became a coherent model for the game design, that's all. 2e was transitional in that particular spectrum of change. And I just can't speak very well to 4e because I haven't Matt Finchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678557558458924177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-3920257909164301262009-02-26T11:24:00.000-04:002009-02-26T11:24:00.000-04:00So to sum up...1974-1976: Halcyon days in which ev...So to sum up...<BR/><BR/>1974-1976: Halcyon days in which everyone played D&D in a free-flowing exchange of ideas and imagination.<BR/><BR/>1977+: Draconian implementation of "Advanced" D&D rules completely undermines the creativity of anyone who opens the book, like some sort of dark heretical text. Role-playing games are plunged down a dark and foreboding path where the Book Jack Badelairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10932441028544500024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-29412391906381526642009-02-26T11:09:00.000-04:002009-02-26T11:09:00.000-04:00@Matt Finch:Just to kick off my response, I cannot...@Matt Finch:<BR/><BR/>Just to kick off my response, I cannot help but find it interesting that you focused on 3e for the first extensive paragraph of your comment. I cannot quite articulate why, but I do find it rather interesting.<BR/><BR/>As for the rest; if that was your intent, far be it from me to say that your intent was misguided. As I stated in my initial post, we all have our opinions.taicharahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213053468697534564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-68640142747107719332009-02-26T10:52:00.000-04:002009-02-26T10:52:00.000-04:00I'm glad the editorial is generating controver...I'm glad the editorial is generating controversy; this was my purpose in publishing it. I definitely think Mr. Kask meant players of the game, rather than non-referee players, whether one likes that better or worse. My own view is that later editions have altered the game from a more narrative style into a more head-to-head style, which is a great game if what you want to do is match wits Matt Finchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678557558458924177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-69144447928650222332009-02-24T06:08:00.000-04:002009-02-24T06:08:00.000-04:00Silly us.Kask's editorial is part of the preview p...Silly us.<BR/><BR/>Kask's editorial is part of the preview portion of Knockspell available at the link in the original post.<BR/><BR/>Not that it changes much about the discussion at hand...JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-11492430710079626552009-02-23T23:26:00.000-04:002009-02-23T23:26:00.000-04:00@K. Bailey:"Good job at making your side of the ar...@K. Bailey:<BR/><BR/><I>"Good job at making your side of the argument look bad. *golf clap*"<BR/><BR/>The snark makes me think you're not really trying to make a good faith effort to see the other side, and I can't even tell why you're offended exactly.</I><BR/><BR/>Please. You have the nerve to comment on my "snark" and say you don't see a "good faith" effort? Did to happen to read the commenttaicharahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213053468697534564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-85982998904907644192009-02-23T20:50:00.000-04:002009-02-23T20:50:00.000-04:00"Good job at making your side of the argument look..."Good job at making your side of the argument look bad. *golf clap*"<BR/><BR/>The snark makes me think you're not really trying to make a good faith effort to see the other side, and I can't even tell why you're offended exactly. I could be misreading, as I'm in a bit of a hurry, but I'll just say that the broad swipes at oldie gamers are not exactly leading me give a shit about your viewpoint, K. Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06623767121412820113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-82792295124453146952009-02-23T09:04:00.000-04:002009-02-23T09:04:00.000-04:00@Will:I take issue with Kask's editorial not becau...@Will:<BR/><BR/><I>I take issue with Kask's editorial not because of his tone, but because I think he's raging against a beast largely of his own imagining.</I><BR/><BR/>The two, I admit, are hard to separate in my mind, as his tone stems directly from this notion he has. But you do have a point. ;3taicharahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213053468697534564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-29904205431562730272009-02-23T04:31:00.000-04:002009-02-23T04:31:00.000-04:00>>I guess it would just blow his mind comple...>>I guess it would just blow his mind completely if he found out that many (probably most) people did the exact same thing with AD&D.<BR/><BR/>This kind of willful misinterpretation is why people get all pissy in their editorials in the first place.<BR/><BR/>The author of AD&D didn't even run AD&D by the book for crying out loud.JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-87152115943223337672009-02-22T21:19:00.000-04:002009-02-22T21:19:00.000-04:00"in OD&D you took the basic framework and..."in OD&D you took the basic framework and made your own unique game out of it."<BR/><BR/>I guess it would just blow his mind completely if he found out that many (probably most) people did the exact same thing with AD&D.<BR/><BR/>The people "calling up Gary Gygax at his home late at night, asking for rulings" may have made a big impression on him (they would on me), Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-63155907173994967762009-02-22T14:42:00.000-04:002009-02-22T14:42:00.000-04:00@Korgoth:So sorry, my dear; but anyone who has to ...@Korgoth:<BR/><BR/>So sorry, my dear; but anyone who has to start their rebuttal with such a pathetic insult as "wittle feewings" quite plainly has no leg to stand on and is trying to cover that fact with a personal attack.<BR/><BR/>"Man up?" "Let out my pigtails?" <BR/>If I ever take that "advice", I think I shall take it from someone with a little more maturity of their own. <BR/><BR/>Good taicharahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213053468697534564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-91601197018700176962009-02-22T13:31:00.000-04:002009-02-22T13:31:00.000-04:00Dude, man up! How dare Kask voice his opinion, eh?...Dude, man up! How dare Kask voice his opinion, eh? He might actually hurt somebody's wittle feewings.<BR/><BR/>His point is obviously, as the Jims have it, that the difference between OD&D and AD&D is that in OD&D you took the basic framework and made your own unique game out of it.<BR/><BR/>But a lot of people evidently didn't want that, or couldn't handle it. They were Korgothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04683370654357044679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-15033786963519793562009-02-22T06:13:00.000-04:002009-02-22T06:13:00.000-04:00>>There seems to be a logical error in think...>>There seems to be a logical error in thinking that D&D would have thrived had it ignored their player base<BR/><BR/>Maybe it would have... and not necessarily commercially.<BR/><BR/>>>and that forcing people to return to something they pushed to change will be likely or productive.<BR/><BR/>Working towards a goal is better than doing nothing as far as making that goal happen.<BRJimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-42741446009509737962009-02-21T18:19:00.000-04:002009-02-21T18:19:00.000-04:00JimLotP wrote:Kask was there. He was part of TSR a...JimLotP wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>Kask was there. He was part of TSR and was with Gygax when they did this. He knows the mentality within the company and the player base they were reacting to. And 30 years later, he thinks it was a big mistake.</I><BR/><BR/><I>He doesn't want people to go away. He wants people to ignore their error (as he sees it) and everything that grew from that error, and come back.Doug Easterlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07861680803540365438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-24139981757646726132009-02-21T15:15:00.000-04:002009-02-21T15:15:00.000-04:00I'd just like to toss in that everyone who's still...I'd just like to toss in that everyone who's still cranky about what happened <I>32 years ago</I> is more than welcome to have a big steaming mug of Get The Hell Over It And Move On.<BR/><BR/>But then again, I've had half a lifetime of fun playing a whole slew of RPGs, old and new, with widely varied rules, methods, styles, and player bases, and somehow have avoided being a bitter, cranky old Jack Badelairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10932441028544500024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-40445580623790616312009-02-21T10:13:00.000-04:002009-02-21T10:13:00.000-04:00I think you're misunderstanding what Mr Kask m...<I>I think you're misunderstanding what Mr Kask meant by "the players." I suspect he was including referees in that category. His point, as I see it, was that the players of the game all too quickly succumbed to the desire to have TSR imagine the game for them and the result was first AD&D, with its clearer, better-stated, and more restrictive rules, and then each subsequent taicharahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213053468697534564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-34108047820279097372009-02-21T10:00:00.000-04:002009-02-21T10:00:00.000-04:00I think you're misunderstanding what Mr Kask meant...I think you're misunderstanding what Mr Kask meant by "the players." I suspect he was including referees in that category. His point, as I see it, was that the players of the game all too quickly succumbed to the desire to have TSR imagine the game for them and the result was first <I>AD&D</I>, with its clearer, better-stated, and more restrictive rules, and then each subsequent edition that James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-89503301245131351972009-02-21T08:32:00.000-04:002009-02-21T08:32:00.000-04:00He doesn't want people to go away. He wants people...<I>He doesn't want people to go away. He wants people to ignore their error (as he sees it) and everything that grew from that error, and come back.</I><BR/><BR/>He wants people to come back? <BR/><BR/>If he wants to cultivate an environment where people would feel <I>welcome</I> to come back -- or visit for the first time -- he'd do well to learn how not to be insulting and antagonistic. taicharahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213053468697534564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5373792969086619654.post-19396390408042179222009-02-21T01:25:00.000-04:002009-02-21T01:25:00.000-04:00>>AD&D didn't take his game or kill ...>>AD&D didn't take his game or kill his dog. 3e didn't take 2e away from me. <BR/><BR/>No, they didn't take it away, but they tried their very best to do it. They divided a player base and did their best to make sure the previous versions were seen as inferior and out of date. This absolutely makes it more difficult to play an earlier version of the game.<BR/><BR/>Kask was <JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.com